An evening exchange with a Salafi in my room

7:15 pm, Thursday, 6/14/2007, Paltalk, Social Issues Section, Sub Section Humanities, Room Tasawwuf is the Heart of Islam.

As I entered the room, brother scally_chris my comrade was on the microphone giving references from the Qur'an, the Sunnah and scholars about the issue of "Is the Prophet Alive in his grave?". I pmed(private messaged) brother Tridax who was also in the room and asked him what's going on.
Tridax: assalamualaikum
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: ws wr
Tridax: just in time as usual
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: o.O
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: what's the topic exactly?
Tridax: she is ok
Tridax: an open minded salafi sister
Tridax: whether dead can pray for us
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: oic
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: who's sam?
Tridax: he seems a knowledgeable brother but not sympathetic to sufis
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: o.O
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: lol
Tridax: he was responding to some questions of shakira
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: oic
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: he rejects the Prophet s.a.w is alive in the grave?
Tridax: yes
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: subahanallah
Tridax: i gave the verse in the quran that shaheeds are live
Tridax: he just ignores
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: i will take the mic and emphasise what chris has stated
Tridax: 002.154
YUSUFALI: And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

"This knowledgeable brother"(sam4546) as I found out later was no more than a wahabi and an avid follower of Albani.

After scally_chris had completed his piece, it was sam4546's turn on the microphone. When he came on, he started saying "okay, you produced the Qur'anic verse "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.", Ibn Hajar mentioned in Fath Al-Bari that if the shuhada'/martyrs are alive than how can the Prophet s.a.w be dead? But you see, Ibn Hajar was just a man, man make mistakes....." This is when I first dotted him(he was dotted 3 times in all). After dotting him I went straight for the mic and sternly warned him not to belittle Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani and informed him that many scholars besides have used the verse and applied qiyas(analogy) to affirm that the Prophets are alive in their grave along with many ahadith which speak about the issue specifically. I then told him of the saheeh hadith from Rasulullah s.a.w. which says "My Ummah will not agree upon an error" and that I would rather take the explanation of the likes of Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani r.a. any second of the day than the claims of a paltalker. I said all of this with the thinking that the person rejects the fact that the Prophet s.a.w. was alive to which I was later corrected by this wahabi brother.

INTERMISSION(sam4546 goes for salah and returns about 10 minutes later)

The conversation continues.
I was on the microphone when the brother came in. I was quite ecstatic. I informed him the microphone will be handed to him after i've given him some ahadith about the Prophet's s.a.w. state in the grave.
1st Hadith :
"Al-Anbiya' Ahaya'un fi quburihim yusallun"
"The Prophets are alive in their graves worshipping their Lord"
Sharh by Sheikh GF Haddad :
A sound (sahih) tradition related on the authority of Anas ibn Malik (r) by: al-Bazzar in his Musnad, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Ibn `Adi in al-Kamil fi al-du`afa', Tammam al-Razi in al-Fawa'id, al-Bayhaqi in Hayat al-anbiya' fi quburihim, Abu Nu`aym in Akhbar Asbahan, Ibn `Asakir in Târeekh Dimashq, al-Haythami in Majma` al-zawa'id (8:211), al-Suyuti in Anbâ' al-adhkiya' bi-hayat al-anbiya' (#5), and EVEN al-Albani, in Silsilat al-ahadith al-sahihah (#621).

I then declared that this is DEFINITE proof that the Prophet s.a.w. is alive in his grave. In addition, I said that when we go to his grave, we may speak to him and he can listen(i brought this up because salafis love to make an issue out of it). I thus produced the following hadith to substantiate my claim:

2nd hadith :
Man Salla `alayya `inda qabri sami`tuhu, wa man Salla `alayya nâ'iyan bullightuhu
"Whoever invokes blessings on me at my grave, I hear him, and whoever invokes blessings on me from afar, I am informed about it."
Ibn Hajar says in FatH al-Bâri 6:379: "Abu al-Shaykh cites it with a good chain (sanad jayyid)," and Bayhaqi mentions it in Hayât al-anbiyâ with "ublightuhu" in the end.


Before I went off the microphone, I informed the person to please not come up and reject the hadiths I've provided lest he become a Quranist like how some wahabis have become.

sam4546 takes the mic. He starts accusing me of being unfair and that I'm not following the discussion and that i'm rude for just barging in the conversation like how I did. After all the compliments he said "no you see I don't reject those hadiths, they're right and true. The Prophet s.a.w is alive in his grave. But the question that arise now is how is he alive? is he alive like us?(I already informed the room about this that when we say the prophet s.a.w. is alive in the grave we're not saying that he is alive exactly as how we the living on earth are alive) He then said, we have to know that he died like any other man and thereafter presented some verses from the Qur'an speaking about Prophet Muhammad's s.a.w. humanity. In the meanwhile, on text I was asking him, okay fine you agree with the hadiths and that the Prophet s.a.w is alive in his grave, in 'alam barzakh in another state..so what exactly is the issue?(as I stated earlier I thought the issue was this person rejecting the fact that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. is alive in his grave). Without answering my questions, he just droned on until he reached the part where things became clear. He started saying you see..Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. died and those who have died cannot help you or intercede for you. He added that intercession from the Prophet s.a.w. is only valid when he was alive and in the hereafter not after he passed away and when he's dead(the ahl sunnah wal jama'ah usually do not say he's dead since the Sunnah attests that he's alive[plus we agreed that he's alive in his grave], what's going on here is common wahabi script). He then produced some Qur'anic verses to support his case without giving references or proper translations for the people in the room who do not understand arabic(i don't either in fact, well not perfectly anyway). He went on and on until he got dotted yet again.

I took the microphone and congratulated him in affirming the fact that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. is alive in his grave. I went straight to the point and said akhi...about your claim that the dead cannot pray or intercede for us here are some ahadith that may shed some light on the issue:

1st Hadith:

Ibn Mas'ud reported that the Messenger of Allah said,"Hayâti khayrun lakum tuHaddithuna wa yuHaddathu lakum fa idha muttu kânat wafâti khayran lakum tu`raDu `alayya a`mâlukum fa in ra'aytu khayran hamidtu allaha wa in ra'aytu ghayra dhâlik istaghfartu Allaha lakum"

"My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be presented to me (in my grave) and if I see goodness I will praise Allah, and if see other than that I will ask forgiveness of him (for you)."
Brief Sharh from Sheikh Dr. GF Haddad :
Qadi `Iyad cites it in "al-Shifa" (1:56 of the Amman edition) and Suyuti said in his "Manahil al-safa fi takhrij ahadith al-shifa" (Beirut 1988/1408) p. 31 (#8): "Ibn Abi Usama cites it in his Musnad from the hadith of Bakr ibn `Abd Allah al-Mazni, and al-Bazzar from the hadith of Ibn Mas`ud with a sound (sahih) chain."

Sharh provided by brother superfaa:
The hadith has a sound chain as stated by al-Suyuti in Manahil al-Safa (p. 31 #8) and al-Khasa'is al-Kubra (2:281), and a sound chain according to al-Haythami (9:24 #91), and a sound chain according to al-`Iraqi in Tarh al-Tathrib (3:297), also Shaykh `Abd Allah al-Talidi said in his Tahdhib al-Khasa'is al-Kubra (p. 458-459 #694) that this chain is sound according to Muslim's criterion, and Shaykh Mahmud Mamduh in Raf`al-Minara (p. 156-169) discusses it at length and declares it sound. Their shaykh, al-Sayyid `Abd Allah ibn al-Siddiq al-Ghumari (d. 1413/1993) declared it sound in his monograph Nihaya al-Amal fi Sharh wa Tashih Hadith `Ard al-A`mal.), Al-Munawi also declared it sahîh(Al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (3:401), and so did al-Zurqani in his commentary on al-Qastallani's al-Mawahib al-Laduniyya, and Shihab al-Din al-Khafaji in Al-Khafaji, Sharh al-Shifa' (1:102), al-Mulla `Ali al-Qari adding: "Al-Harith ibn Usama narrated it in his Musnad with a sound chain." (Al-Qari, Sharh al-Shifa' (1:102), referring to the mursal hadith of Bakr al-Muzani.). Ibn Hajar also mentioned it in al-Matalib al-`Alya.(al-Matalib al-`Alya (4:22). This hadith also came to us through another, mursal way from [the Tabi`î] Bakr ibn `Abd Allah al-Muzani. The muhadith Isma`il al-Qadi also narrated it in his monograph on the invocation of blessings on the Prophet.

****THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS HADITH***********

2nd Hadith :
From the Sahabi Malik al-Dar:
"The people suffered a drought in `Umar's khilafa, whereupon a man[Bilal ibn al- Harith - according to ibn Hajar] came to the grave of the Prophet (alayhi salaat wa salaam) and said: "Messenger of Allah! Ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished." After this the Prophet(alayhi salaat wa salaam) appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: Be clever!" The man went and told `Umar. The latter wept and said: "My Lord! I spare no effort except in what escapes my power."

Sharh by brother superfaa:

Related by Ibn Abū Shaybah in al-Musannaf (12:31-2#12051); Bayhaqī, Dalā’il-un-nubuwwah (7:47); Ibn ‘Abd-ul-Barr, al-Istī‘āb fī ma‘rifat-il-ashāb (2:464); Subkī, Shifā’-us-siqām fī ziyārat khayr-il-anām (p.130); ‘Alā’-ud-Dīn ‘Alī, Kanz-ul-‘ummāl (8:431#23535); and Abū Ya‘lā Khalīl bin ‘Abdullāh Khalīlī Qazwīnī in Kitāb-ul-irshād fī ma‘rifat ‘ulamā’-il-hadith (1:313-4), as quoted by Mahmūd Sa‘īd Mamdūh in Raf‘-ul-minārah (p.262).
(Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah vol.12 pg.31-32; Dalaailun-nubuwwah of Imaam Bayhaqi vol.7 pg.47).

************THERE IS ALSO NO DOUBT ABOUT THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS HADITH*********

After finishing up I said to sam4546 that these ahadith are agreed upon by all the great muhaditheen of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and their qualification is of no issue. Further more, Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. has informed us that "My Ummah will not collectively agree upon an error" and according to many hadith exegesis the term ummah here refers to learned men in the religion, not just any tom, dick or harry. It is difficult to imagine that all these great scholars would have agreed upon a lie or a fabricated narration, when they are known for their great knowledge, dedication and meticulousness. I then again asked him to please not reject the narrations and become a Qur'anist before passing the mic to him.

Sam4546 takes the microphone and re-quoted the first hadith I presented. After quoting it he made the bold claim that...THIS HADITH IS MAUDHU'. IT IS WEAK!!! According to Al-Sarakhshi(or someone that sounds like that, his speech was not really that understandable to me with all due respect) and then he made the great blunder of saying AND ALSO BY SHEIKH ALBANI !! after which he was immediately dotted. I went to the microphone and exclaimed rather loudly that we shall not have THAT in this room ! How dare you cancel and debunk a hadith agreed by a bench of great muhaditheen as saheeh to be weak on the basis of what the charlatan Albani said !!! I then reminded him of the hadith I quoted "My Ummah will not agree upon an error" and asked a rhetorical question who the heck is Albani to question the authenticity of any hadith that has been declared saheeh by qualified, recognised muhaditheen of Islam!?!? I went on saying that Albani made great blunders when he attempted to analyse the hadith and you call him "Sheikhul Hadith" ??? He asked me to pass the microphone to him several times to which i sternly responded saying, I refuse to let the fans of Albani to come to the mic. You sam4546 will just repeat the same thing ! You're just gonna keep saying maudhu' maudhu' maudhu' because that's what Albani said. Your people accuse us of ahl sunnah wal jama'ah of doing taqleed and even go so far as to make takfir on those who say it's wajeeb to do taqleed on a madhab(this is qualified by the scholars of Islam to mean those without knowledge or sound knowledge in the sciences of Islam) YET you do the very same thing!!! The difference is the ahl sunnah wal jama'ah do taqleed on qualified, REAL scholars of Islam while the Wahabis follow superious personalities like Albani. When I was saying these, I was in a sort of frenzy, excited..that I have to admin. Sam4546 said that "YOU ARE 'HIGH TEMPERED'" in reference to my tone. If anyone has heard me talking about something that I'm very passionate about, they would not have mistaken it for anger. The people were asking me to let sam4546 back on the mic and brother Tridax said that "ono, give the mic to sam even if you disagree with him please" to which I responded saying " I shall not allow the lies of the fans of Albani spread in this room ". Anyone who does not agree with my method of controlling my room, may vacate whenever they please. After all, on the banner of my room..it is clearly mentioned that Lying is prohibited. To discredit a legitimate hadith on the basis of what a solitary unauthoritative individual has to say is quite a lie. Seeing that I will not placate and return the mic to him, sam4546 exited the room.

The following is a follow up in pm(private message) :
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: sam..habibi
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: i know you think i'm oppressive
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: and maybe even a coward
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: i am not
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: you see
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: i have little patience for albani fans
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: and i will not have this albani cancelling the ijma' of the ulama'
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: let me just give you one example of this sheikhul hadith of yours
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: i suggest you look it up
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: in Irwa al-Ghalil, 6/251 number 1847
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: a narration from Ali r.a.
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: Albani had the audacity to say
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: Lam aqif ala sanadih !
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: I could not find the sanad to this narration!
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: if he had only read Imam Al-Hadith Al-Bayhaqi
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: in Sunah Al-Bayhaqi 7/121
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: apparently...your hadith doesn't know his ulum hadith very well
Onomat Al-Sufi Al-Shafie: hadith master*
sam4546: you are a joke and you know it
sam4546 is now offline.
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Alhamdulillahi RABBIL 'ALAMEEN. The truth prevails. Wassalam.